Jun 7, 2023
In this final episode of Season three, Siobhan Kiernan from the class of 2021 speaks with Sean O'Connor from the class of 1992. As a fundraiser and member of the Holy Cross Annual Fund Team, Siobhan talks with Sean about his accomplished career in fundraising. Today, he continues to make a difference as the Chief Development Officer at the National Audubon Society. Their conversation gives you a behind-the-scenes look at what it takes to support the nonprofit organizations that we love. The Holy Cross mission of serving others is central to the work that they do. As people foreign with others, their careers modeled the idea of doing well while doing good.
Interview originally recorded in August 2022.
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Sean:
When I'm being reflective of the relationship between the effort and the work that I've applied my daily profession to the outcome, it completely aligns with my worldview of actually helping other people and helping organizations and helping the world. Whether it's through art, or healthcare or science or human rights or conservation, I feel pretty good about that.
Maura:
Welcome to Mission Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show.
In this final episode of Season three, Siobhan Kiernan from the class of 2021 speaks with Sean O'Connor from the class of 1992. As a fundraiser and member of the Holy Cross Annual Fund Team, Siobhan talks with Sean about his accomplished career in fundraising. After a year in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, Sean accepted a role raising funds for a small Catholic school on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Thanks to the support and encouragement of some Holy Cross alumni, he accepted a position with CCS fundraising, which brought his fundraising overseas and greatly expanded the scope of his work. Today, he continues to make a difference as the Chief Development Officer at the National Audubon Society. Their conversation gives you a behind-the-scenes look at what it takes to support the nonprofit organizations that we love. The Holy Cross mission of serving others is central to the work that they do. As people foreign with others, their careers modeled the idea of doing well while doing good.
Siobhan:
Hello everyone. My name is Siobhan Kiernan and I am a 2021 Holy Cross grad, and current member of the Holy Cross Fund Team. And I'm joined here with Sean O'Connor. Hello, how are you?
Sean:
Hi Siobhan. Good to see you again.
Siobhan:
Yeah, you too. Where are you zooming from?
Sean:
I'm zooming from Goldens Bridge, New York, which is Northern Westchester County near Bedford and North Salem.
Siobhan:
Nice. Oh my gosh. I'm zooming from New York City, so...
Sean:
Oh wow. Whereabouts?
Siobhan:
In like little... I'm on the Upper East Side right now. It's where I grew up.
Sean:
Oh, that's right. I grew... For a while. I lived on 83rd and third when I did all this.
Siobhan:
Oh yes, we talked about this.
Sean:
Yeah, right.
Siobhan:
Oh, that's awesome. Are you from New York?
Sean:
No, I actually grew up in Worcester, Massachusetts where there's a school called Holy Cross, is there I think. And I in that way was born at St. Vincent Hospital and then grew up really in Holden, Massachusetts, which is just north of Worcester. And I went to Wachusett Regional High School. And I know your next question is why I don't have an accent, but for some reason I dropped the Worcester accent. When I went to Holy Cross, actually, ironically, I think my accent started to go away.
Siobhan:
They ironed it out of you.
Sean:
They must have ironed it out of me, yes. I could put on the Worcester accent, but only under severe pressure.
Siobhan:
That's so funny. I've been told that I don't have a New York accent either.
Sean:
No, you don't.
Siobhan:
So I guess there's something about Holy Cross and taking out accents. So you kind of really just started this, I guess, but why Holy Cross? I mean, I know you're from Worcester, but some people I know probably wouldn't have wanted to go to a school in their hometown. So why did you stay, and what about Holy Cross made you want to go there?
Sean:
It is a family school. For me, my grandfather was class of '31 and my father was class of '66. My uncle was class of '62. I think even have one of my other father's relatives went there. And so I always had heard about Holy Cross. And I lived on campus, I didn't commute even though I was about 10 miles away from Worcester, or from home rather. But it was obviously one of the most important decisions I made as a young person. And then probably, in truth, is probably the best school I got into when I was applying for colleges. That was another part as well.
Siobhan:
No, but that worked out. The one thing I love about Holy Cross is that you can feel very much away even if you are local.
Sean:
Right.
Siobhan:
I have friends who lived off campus and I remember I always lived on campus and my thought process was, you have your whole life to live outside the gates of Mt. St. James. Why would you want to go now?
Sean:
Right, for sure. But I enjoyed it. It was great.
Siobhan:
Yeah. So what was your time on campus? What did you do? What did you major in? What activities did you like to do?
Sean:
I was a history major, and I took my academics semi-seriously, I think. I'm a lifelong reader and I probably am still interested in history and read a lot of William Durant history surveys when I'm on the plane on a tarmac or something like that. So I still enjoy learning, but I spent a lot of time on extracurricular activities. I didn't play sports, and maybe once in a while would play a soccer pickup game if one existed. But I was involved in the radio station, I was the station manager for a year.
Siobhan:
Oh cool.
Sean:
And a DJ. And then I was involved, I think in one of the campus activity boards, I think my senior year. Is it called SS or something? I'm trying to remember then what the acronym was.
Siobhan:
Or is it CAB? I mean, today I think it's probably the equivalent.
Sean:
Something like that. I would put on concerts at Hogan. I did one concert. I think I almost got kicked off campus because I did not go through the proper channels of getting permits and things like that. So I learned a lot at college about doing things like that. We had a band called The Mighty, Mighty Boss Tones playing in the basement, which was a fun, legendary show. And then when I was at the station, radio station, we did a kind of benefit concert for the Worcester Coalition for the Homeless in Worcester. There was a band named Fugazi that we brought up to Worcester and did a show, which is fun. So we did some fun stuff connecting Worcester where I grew up to Holy Cross. I was also a resident assistant in the Mulledy basement. So yeah, it was a fun four years.
Siobhan:
Wow. So you mentioned you were a history major. I'm always curious, because I did economics, why history? And did you have a favorite class?
Sean:
I kind of go back and forth between really US history and European history or world history. And I did take an African history class, which is pretty influential. Professor David O'Brien was my advisor and he's kind of a labor and Catholic historian. And I still am interested in labor history. I can get really geeky I suppose, about history. I just really do enjoy it in terms of understanding patterns and issues and big issues that we're facing now as a country, and what are the historical analogs, and what has happened in the past that informs where you are right now. And all my family were English majors or our English majors. I think my daughter is an English, is going to become an English major, not a history major. My son was a poly sci major at Bucknell and a film major.
But history is, I just enjoy it. And I go back and forth. I probably read more non-US history these days, but it's an escapism too for me. Dealing with everything else, it's kind of fun to read about the Age of Enlightenment or something like that, and just learn about different thinkers and different parts of history that you weren't aware of. And then if you get really excited, you can go deep on those things and get really geeky.
Siobhan:
I took one history class in Holy Cross, and I found that I almost felt like an investigator, like a detective, which as an economics major it is... That's a different way of thinking. So actually I have a lot of respect for the history department. Cause you very much have to tell a story, and really unpack documents and things. And I think that's...
Sean:
Yeah, for sure.
Siobhan:
And you mentioned your professor. I always love to hear about, because the school is so small and the community is so great. Is there anyone that comes to mind who had a meaningful impact on you at Hogan?
Sean:
Academically, David Chu, who is my accounting professor, and I just didn't do as well in accounting, but that taught me a lot about the importance of studying, actually. There was a professor Whall when I took my early survey class in history, which kind of awakened me to academic writing in a different way. And I lifeguarded at the pool, so got to hang out with the late Barry Parenteau who just passed away. And that was fun times there. And then some of the student life people, I think Dean Simon, I'm trying to remember his name, but he was the one that I worked with a little bit in my senior year. He was the Student Life Dean, if I remember correctly, out of Hogan. And then actually career advisors towards the end. I think one of the more influential people in my career, if we segue into that section, is this John Winters, who is there as a career advisor who really got me on the pathway of where I am right now.
Siobhan:
Oh, fabulous. Actually, that was a great segue. That was actually my next question was going to be, could you just take me through from commencement to where you are?
Sean:
Sure.
Siobhan:
Your journey. I did look into your bio a little bit and you had a very vast career so far, but I want to hear about it from you, your whole journey.
Sean:
So when I got out of school, I remember second semester, senior year, gosh knows what you're going to do. But I think I interviewed, think at some advertising agency, Leo Burnett, that has historically hired Holy Cross grads and did not get the interview. But I was able to go to Chicago for that all day interview, which was kind of fun. Get to stay in the fancy hotel for the first time. And then when I got out of school I ended up going to Jesuit Volunteer Corps. So I did the Jesuit Volunteer Corps in the northwest and was stationed, or placed, I guess is the language in Auburn, Washington, which is between Seattle and Tacoma. And my placement, or my job, the volunteer job was working at a residential youth shelter for physically and sexually abused kids. And I was doing that for a year.
And so my job was to take to care of them, drive them to school, make them dinner, take them on field trips, and then talk to them. And then, learning what it meant to be a social worker and would write about my day and my interactions to help the therapists and the psychologists who are helping them connect the dots about what issues they were facing. They were typically there for a couple of weeks. It was transitional short term, before they might have been between foster placements or they might have been just removed from the home. And the state was trying to figure out what to do with them. So it was a very eye-opening experience, making $20 a week living in a community in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps.
But that moment I was actually really interested in understanding how nonprofits were financed. I was like, all right, so how did they actually get the money to do the work? How does it actually work? So I was able to understand a little bit about the particular organization I was volunteering at. It was called Auburn Youth Resources. And they would receive a lot of money from the King County, which is the local county outside of Seattle. But the philanthropy piece, that people would give them money was relatively small. And anyways, it was, it's an opportunity for me to think about that.
I wanted to do good but also do well. And I think a lot of this has to do with Holy Cross, but also that my parents or both teachers. My brother's a teacher, my sister's a teacher, my other sister who went to Holy Cross works in nonprofits as well, she was class of '95. So I think that, my family upbringing and combined with Holy Cross in terms of its ethos of men and women for others, I think really kind of pushed me into this career, which wasn't really a career back then.
I don't know if you want me to keep going, but when I got back from the year of volunteer work and I came back to the East Coast, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I lived in Worcester, outside of Worcester. I thought I wanted to move to Boston where, because I was nearby that was a big city, or move to Washington DC where a lot of my roommates were and friends. But John Winter in the Career Center said, did you ever think about development? And I said, what's development? And we talked more about it, what that actually meant. And he connected me with a guy named Pat Cunningham, who I think is class of '85. And Pat Cunningham worked in New York City, and at the time he worked for the Archdiocese of New York.
And the program there was that they were trying to help small Catholic parochial schools become sustainable. So small Catholic schools in New York City were always a big deal for helping teach kids and families who didn't have a lot of money, but get a good education. The outcomes were terrific. Typically, a lot of the kids went on to college. But the financial model was becoming challenging, because the religious communities who would tend to teach at those schools was diminishing. So they would have to hire lay teachers, you don't have to pay a Sister as much as you have to pay a layperson. So I think that caused like, oh my goodness, tuition is not covering the cost. And so they were trying to figure out a way could they raise money? Like private high schools, like St. John's in Shrewsbury or St. John's in Danvers, as BC High or Notre Dame Academy, they tend to raise money from their alums or parents. Pat Cunningham's job was to figure that out with some parochial schools in New York.
There was a philanthropist who just passed away a couple of years ago, a guy named Richard Gilder, who was a Jewish, who founded a company Gilder, Gagnon, & Howe. Anyways, he believed in Catholic education and funded a lot of these schools. He believed in the outcomes and giving back in the community. And so he was essentially underwriting director and development positions. So the salary that a director of development would require. So there was an opportunity for me to work at a school called St. Columba Elementary School, which is on 25th between eighth and ninth without any experience at 23 years old.
Siobhan:
Is it still there?
Sean:
It is still there. But unfortunately, the school is closed and is now probably a private or a charter school. It Is the school... Had a couple famous alums, Whoopi Goldberg, graduated from... it's the school Whoopi Goldberg graduated from St. Columba, and as well as a singer from the sixties and seventies, Tony Orlando went to St. Colo. He's a guy who sang Tie A Yellow Ribbon and Knock Three Times. You ever hear those songs? No. Knock three times on the ceiling.
Siobhan:
Maybe.
Sean:
Yeah. I don't want to sing it. So what I had to do is work with the sisters and figure out a way to help raise money. And I learned a ton. It was fun. I started talking to some of the colleagues who were doing the similar work in the city, and we created a consortium of colleagues, I think we called it ourselves development, gosh, I forgot what we called it. Ourselves like Development Resources, Development Resource Group, I think DRG maybe. In any case, we would meet and just try to do some brainstorming and figure out how to solve problems. And we actually got some funding to actually help our little mini consortium. And I was there for about a year. It was fun.
Siobhan:
And then I know that you also did some foundation work, correct?
Sean:
Yeah. So after what? So I was doing that for a year, and then I had heard about this big company called CCS Fundraising and it's called... At the time it was called Community Counseling Service. And it's still around. It's a big, big fundraising company. And at the time, back when I was there, it's probably quadrupled since I was working there. Any case, we didn't have any money at St. Columba for professional development. So there was this big conference in New York called Fundraising Day in New York. And it is held every, it's the third Friday of June every year. So it's like a one day, it's one of the biggest fundraising conferences in New York. But to go to it, you know, it's like $600 or something like that. And we didn't have any money at St. Columba to do that. And so there was a scholarship opportunity.
So if I wrote an essay to the committee that they would send scholarships out. So I wrote an essay to the committee and they underwrote my admission. So I was able to go to the event. And at the event I ran into an executive at CCS Fundraising and talked to him. He encouraged me to apply to CCS, which I did. And then I got a job with CCS Fundraising, which really did change my career for the good. And they sent me all around the world and helped train me in fundraising. And it was great. I was there for a long, long time. And that's where I did do some foundation work. So to continue on that, so when I got to CCS, I went to Yorkshire, England to do some work for the Diocese of Leeds and raise money there. So essentially CCS as a company that would get hired by nonprofits to actually help them raise money.
Siobhan:
Like a consultant.
Sean:
A hundred percent like a consultant. And it's weird because you'd be 24 years old or 25 years old and you're a consultant. And I remember a lot of my family friends is like, what do you know? You're just a kid. And there was a lot of truth in that, because I didn't know what I was doing. But the way the model worked at CCS was that they would train you, and there was actually different levels of consulting. And actually modern consulting firms like McKinsey have a similar model where you have the partners who are the thought leaders, and the business development people who actually find the clients. And they just need people to do the work. And those are the directors, the associate directors who essentially just took direction from the leadership.
And in the case of going to the Diocese of Leeds, my charge was to work with parishes and coordinate, manage, design and execute what I would call mini-campaigns for each of those parishes. So I would go to the priest, I would orient the priest on the plan, we'd recruit a leadership team and go out and raise money. It was a very, very difficult assignment, but I learned a lot about resilience and persuasion and problem-solving and persistence and all that stuff, because it was a very intense five or six months. But it was fun. Get to live in Yorkshire in the middle of the winter when you're 24, 25 years old. That was great.
Siobhan:
I was going to say, that also just sounds really cool because you kind of get to dabble in so many different types of advancement. I know in development, I remember when I first learned about it, I was like, oh, that's like for schools. And I'm like, wait, no. There's fundraising for hospitals and political campaigns and nature organizations, which I want to get to eventually.
Sean:
And human rights organizations or arts and cultural groups. I think that that's a really good point, Siobhan, because where I got really lucky was that I, and it really serves me well right now at this stage in my career that I have a very diverse set of experiences and what we call multi-sector kind of experience. I'm not just a higher ed fundraiser, I've done every single type of nonprofit fundraising. And when you do that, you get to see where the commonalities are, and what the challenges are. Everything from a museum on Japanese sculptor named Isamu Noguchi, or to Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in Long Island, with Dr. Watson, who just basically discovered DNA. So I've been very blessed with having been exposed, and working with very different kinds of organizations. And I know that at this point in my life, there's not a lot of people who have that kind of experience. And so that kind of becomes my professional marker, I guess. So the person who's done a lot of big complex organizations, but also a lot of small organizations too.
Siobhan:
So I have two questions on that. The first is, it's a soft question. In all of those different types of fundraising, which was your favorite, I guess what kind of fundraising was most enjoyable for you?
Sean:
I do the arts and cultural world because I find the board and the people to be very interesting and fun to work with. It is perhaps the hardest sector to work on because a lot of what we do is 400 billion is given away by people and corporations and foundations every year. And the top sector, it's religion, is probably the largest recipient of philanthropy, healthcare and education come in pretty close after that. So you're going to get a lot, it's not saying it's easier to raise money in higher ed, in healthcare, but in some ways it is because in healthcare it typically centers around solving a problem or the so-called grateful patient. "Dr X saved my life, I'm going to give him all my money or a lot of my money" and higher education is "professor Y saved my life and got me on the right path, so I'm going to give money there." Arts and cultural tends to be not necessarily the top priority people. It could be second or third or maybe sometimes fourth. And so it's harder sometimes, but I find it to be more interesting.
And then in terms of my most enjoyable experience, probably when I worked in London again in 2000, when I got to do some work with the International Accounting Standards Board, which sounds very boring, but the job was very exciting because what the job was, was to raise money for an organization that was trying to harmonize accounting standards around the world.
Siobhan:
Oh, cool.
Sean:
I got to travel around Europe to actually interview executives on their willingness to support this cause, this kind of new plan. And it was just fun working on that kind of scale. One of the great things about this, that I've enjoyed about my career is that I have to learn about every kind of thing. I'm not an expert on accounting, but I have to be able to have a conversation about it. I'm not an expert on art museums, but I have to be able to at least have a conversation about it. And here at Audubon, I'm not an ornithologist, but I have to be able to talk about climate change and the importance of eelgrass in San Francisco Bay. Because what I'm doing is representing these organizations, and serving as the middle person between philanthropy and good causes. And that's on thing I think my profession's about. It's not about asking for money, in a weird way. It's really about creating an environment where you create opportunities for people who have money, who want to give away money, to do it in a way that they feel comfortable doing it.
Siobhan:
No, I feel the same way, especially in connecting with alums. It's not about asking them for money. It's about what did you love about Holy Cross and how can you support that again?
Sean:
Exactly.
Siobhan:
But you mentioned Audubon. And I just, so again, with advancement just being so vast, if I'm being honest, I didn't know that such an organization existed. When I saw that that's where you work, I was like, oh my God, of course that would exist.
Sean:
I'm going to have to do more work then, Siobhan to make sure you hear about this.
Siobhan:
But it makes sense. Birds are so important, and the environment is such, no pun intended, but a hot topic right now. But how did you, I guess, find that organization and what brought you there?
Sean:
Yeah.
Siobhan:
Is that one of your passions too? Is the environment something that strikes...
Sean:
It is, I think certainly climate change and birds over time. The truth is that they found me and reached out to me. And then, right now at this stage of my career, I think when I was a little younger... And I have some advice about careers too, but, and this is what I share with people, is that you really do want to go to a place where the people, you kind of vibe with the people that you're going to work with. I think mission is very important, but as you're building a career, it's very important to find people that believe in you, give you the resources to be successful in where you can learn. At Audubon, at this stage of my career, because I have a leadership role, I can control some of those things. I can control the type of culture I'm trying to create with my team, and which I think is very, very important for fundraisers. For fundraisers to stay, is actually understanding what makes motivates fundraisers and what motivates development. Because I think a lot of this is, there's some similar aspects I think to a really good fundraising personality.
But Audubon, I think the reason why I'm here is because they wanted to grow. And one of the things I've learned about my career recently is that there's some people who are comfortable in a status quo environment. And then there's some people who just like to build things. And I'm certainly in the ladder, and part of this is because of my consulting background. I like to solve problems, and figure out a way to grow. I know that sounds like every organization wants to do that, but not necessarily. Because I think in order to do that, there has to be an alignment between the board and the leadership of the organization, and actually a really good case of why growth is needed. And then of course they need to invest. So you need to spend money to raise money.
All those elements were in place when I was talking to Audubon about five and a half years ago with leadership. So if I see alignment between the Chair of the Board and the CEO, and if they kind of align with the Chief Development Officer or the person who's in charge of raising money, that's when really great things can happen. Because this is never, in my view, a money issue. There's plenty of money in this world right now. This is always a strategy problem. How are we getting the money? How are we telling our story? Do we have the mechanical pieces in place? Do we have the right people? Are they trained? Do we have the right leadership in place? Those are the things that staff ultimately control. And if they are in the right spot, and doing it the right way, the money should come.
It's very difficult to get all that stuff figured out. And that's really, at the end of the day, that's what the work is. Is that I think good fundraisers have a vision for what the word will look like or feel like. At any given day, I know what kind of meeting I'm trying to design between a board member and my CEO, and I know what I want them to say and I know who I want in the room. So I'm always trying to get to that point. Not as easy as it sounds, because it just takes time to get all those things in place, and to make sure that the conversation's happening. And making sure you have answers to all the questions that funders want. So for instance, at Audubon we're... Bezos gives a wait a lot of money for climate, we spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to make that approach happen the right way. I don't want need to digress, but that's a lot of it how I think of it.
Siobhan:
No, and that's awesome. Actually, so I have a few questions that are going in different directions, so I'll see if I can loop them all together. So the first one is, I guess, what keeps you in this work? What drives your day? What kept your passion in the work that you're doing?
Sean:
Well, yeah, there were times, I remember in 2000, 2001 during the first dot com boom, I remember I would've been about 30 or so, there was a lot of people in my peer group trying to go to dotcom and early in internet stage companies. And I did talk to some people, this is after I got back from London. And I remember talking to some, what I would call philtech. Phil, P H I L technology, so philanthropy technology companies that were starting at that time and ultimately did not pursue them. And then on occasion, during the late two thousands or before the 2008 recession, could I parlay this experience into some kind of for-profit thing? I think ultimately, what kept me is, which is what you hear when you hear people give career advice when you're younger is, and I think there's a lot of truth to this, is if you actually like what you do and eventually you become good at it, then everything else takes care of itself. So I really do like what I'm doing, and I've become pretty good at it. And so then everything else takes care of itself.
And being intentional about the different moves you make. And because designing a career is... I'm not saying it's a full-time job, but you cannot approach that casually. You have to be attainable about it. And what I mean by that is that whenever you go to an organization, and it doesn't really matter what sector we're talking about, but certainly in the fundraising sector, you want to understand not only how you're going to be successful there, but what will it lead to? What if you're successful at XYZ organization, will it give you an opportunity to grow within the organization or maybe even go to another organization, that type of thing. Depending on what you ultimately want to do.
You don't have to become a Chief Development Officer. You can become the best frontline fundraiser in an area that you really, really love. And that's the great thing about this sector is that there's a lot of different diverse job functions. You have the development operations side, which is very much oriented towards tech people and people who are data-driven. The foundation relations kind of world, which really solid writers do well in that sector or that section of the work. And then frontline fundraisers are really usually a kind of sales salesperson orientation.
Siobhan:
I was going to say, as someone who is on the soliciting end of things, I feel like I'm a salesperson for Holy Cross, which I love because as someone, and you get this as someone who benefited from the product, it almost makes the job easy. But I was curious, so as someone, you weren't on both ends of the spectrum, so the soliciting side, which we've said isn't all about asking for money, but sometimes it comes down to, okay, here's my wallet. And then also the giving away of money. How would you, I guess, compare those roles? Because right now, as someone who's just starting out, I find the idea of grant giving and the other side of the work to be intriguing.
Sean:
It is intriguing. So my experience and foundations, I did some work with the MacArthur Foundation and the Gates Foundation, both those opportunities, I got to obviously work closely with them to understand more how they work. And over my career, I've got to work closely with some foundations. And over my career, I've probably felt the same thing that you're feeling, oh, it would be fun to get away money. But it's funny, they kind of have the same challenges in some ways because they... And I think that that actually helps you become a good fundraiser with foundations. To kind of boil this down, everyone has a job and everyone has to do things. So if you're a foundation officer, you have to do things, you have to give away money. And it is hard to give away money, because you're going to be evaluated on how the partnerships that you developed, did you squander the money or did you give the money away smartly? And if you gave the money away, did you do a good job following up in a and actually evaluating their efficacy? And that is hard. And there's a lot of pressure.
And so if you orient yourself as a, now I'm going on the solicitor side, if you orient yourself to, I'm going to make this person's life easier, then you're talking to them like a person and you're creating a partnership. How can I help you with your job, or what you have to do? We're a good organization, we're going to communicate with you, we're going to spend your money the right way. Then it's a great thing. So you're not really asking them for money, you're really creating a partnership. And I think that that makes all the things in the world.
But then if you think about designing strategies for a billionaire who wants to, some billionaire from Holy Cross calls you Siobhan and said, Siobhan, I want you to run a foundation for me and figure out... I want to give away money to human rights organizations and arts organizations in South America, and I'm going to give you a budget and you figure it out. So what would you do? You would probably start creating a network. You would go travel and see some, understand the issue. Go to South America, go visit museums, create a network of people, and then start to give away money. Yes, that would be fun. That would be really fun.
But going to a big foundation and running a program, you do have to be a subject matter expert. Oftentimes, not all the time, because now there are a lot of foundations out there that I've been encountering that will hire a friend, someone they trust to actually help them with their foundation. I met this foundation recently where, all of a sudden they found themselves with a whole lot of money and they wanted to create this foundation because that's what the estate had directed them to do. And they're going to find the person that they trust. And so sometimes that person's not a subject matter expert, but they're a trusted advisor to the family. But if you're a subject matter expert in human rights, you're coming at it from a different direction. You're an academic that goes into a foundation.
But I do think it's a growing, obviously a growing field as the wealth inequality continues to increase. I'll just give you a little tidbit on, this is one of my favorite facts. When I started in the business, mid-nineties, I would always go to the Hudson News in Grand Central and buy the Forbes 400, which would come out, I guess it would come on the fall. I'm trying to remember when it did. But I always loved that because I would go home on the train and just read it, and learn about the families who had wealth. And I quickly learned that not everybody, wealth and philanthropy are not the same thing. People with money and people who are philanthropic, there's like a Venn diagram in the middle. But to be the four hundredth, wealthiest person on that list, right back in the mid-nineties, the net worth was 400 million or something like that. It's a lot of money. What do you think it is today?
Siobhan:
It's more. Because I feel like... I was going to say, I feel like, because nowadays, and maybe it's because I work in fundraising, a million dollars doesn't seem like that much money anymore.
Sean:
Something like 1.7 billion.
Siobhan:
I was going to say at least a billion dollars.
Sean:
So why that's extraordinary. Not only how much it's gone up. Might be 1.4, but I know it's something like that. There's a whole lot of people below that. We don't even know who those people are.
Siobhan:
Wow.
Sean:
They're not necessarily publicly known. So the amount of people... It used to be rather, you used to be able to understand where the wealth was. And now I think you just don't, A very interesting world we live in now in terms of the relationship between wealth, philanthropy, and our business. There's a lot of new philanthropists coming on board that are coming out of the nowhere, partly because they're just not as well known. It's just more. There's more opportunity. That's why we're not really at a wealthy, it's not about money, it's about strategy.
Siobhan:
I was also going to say, I find... At least I can relate to least the capacity because sometimes, you use all the data that you have and you assume that someone has this profile, but you could either be over assuming, but then you could also be easily under assuming too. There are probably people that you don't think they would give maybe over a thousand dollars. But if you go about it, as you were saying, strategy, if you talk to them, if they're into music and you talk to them about the new performing arts center, you might inspire their generosity more than if you're talking to them about a new basketball court.
Sean:
I think that that's a hundred percent right. And I think, that's why I think it sounds a little old school. I think research can be a little overdone. I love research by the way. I think that my research team, they call me an, I'm an honorary researcher because on occasion, if I'm sitting in front of the TV or something like that, I'll go deep on some name and I just love finding these little nuggets of information. I'll send our director of prospect research these random emails. I said, look into this, look into that. Because at least at Audubon, I'm looking into people who care about climate, who care about birds, who care about...
Siobhan:
Again, that is so unique.
Sean:
Well, there's one, if you look on... Here's one of the cool things about birds besides the fact they're cool. If you go to... The Fish and Wildlife Service did a report on one of the most common outdoor activity, obviously gardening is actually probably the top. Birding is actually second or so. They estimate over 40 million people at one point in their life have gone out and watched birds, whether it's in their backyard or something like that. It's an awful lot of people.
Siobhan:
It is a lot of people. That's a fun fact.
Sean:
Yeah, it drives our work for sure. And we're doing this cool thing. This is kind of a little bit out of sequence, but we have this thing called Bird Song, which is this project we're doing. In fact, you can look on Spotify, and this has been in the New York Times. A music supervisor, a guy named Randall Poster who works with Wes Anderson and Martin Scorsese approached Audubon, and he got the bird bug over the pandemic because he was at home and listening to birds. He approached all of his musician friends, people like Jarvis Cocker and Yo-Yo Ma and Yoko Ono and Karen O and Beck to do songs inspired by Bird Song. And so he has 180 tracks.
He's also asked his actor friends like Liam Neeson and Matthew McConaughey and Adrien Brody to read poems that are about birds, including a bird poem written by another Holy Cross alum, Billy Collins, who is a poet who wrote a poem about sandhill cranes in Nebraska. He has Conor Oberst from Bright Eyes reading that poem. Anyways, there's going to be a big album, a box set release, and all the money's going to go to Audubon.
Siobhan:
That's awesome.
Sean:
Birds are having a moment.
Siobhan:
Birds are having a moment. It's a bird's world and we're just living in it.
Sean:
It is. That's a good way of putting it, I'm going to borrow that.
Siobhan:
You can totally, as long as you give me copyright credit.
Sean:
I'll absolutely give you copyright, and all the royalties.
Siobhan:
Exactly. And I do want to just be cognizant of time, but as the podcast is about Holy Cross's mission and how it influenced your life, and I know you did talk about this a little bit at the beginning. I just wanted to hear more about how Holy Cross impacted your life and your work, and maybe Holy Cross' mission in addition to being men and women for others.
Sean:
I found a profession that I think in the beginning it might not have made sense, but I have to tell you now, at my age, there's a lot of people, a lot of friends who went to all lacrosse and other places are some ways jealous of this career because... So I have this ability to do well and do good. Use persuasion techniques or skills that could be implied to advertising or banking or some other sales job. But when I'm being reflective of the relationship between the effort and the work that I've applied my daily profession to the outcome, it completely aligns with my worldview of actually helping other people and helping organizations and helping the world, whether it's through art or healthcare or science or human rights or conservation. I feel pretty good about that. And I also feel very fortunate because I don't think I'd be in this profession if it wasn't for Holy Cross, partly because combined with how I was raised and also Holy Cross reinforcing some of those values and elevating them.
And then, really the specific moment when Jonathan Winters actually said, hey, you should look into this job. And really made the connection between me as a recent alum and an opportunity with another Holy Cross person. So if Pat Cunningham's listening to this podcast, and I reach out to him once in a while, was a very influential person in terms of where I'm at right now, and I'm very grateful for that. So it's a fun profession. I encourage, I do a lot of connecting with other Holy Cross grads that have helped people. And there's a lot of Holy Cross people that I've met who are in this business, and you try to get together. Because I think there's a really interesting theme here in terms of what we do. And a lot of us are doing, in pretty good organizations, doing really, really good work. So celebrating that as a profession would be fun to do.
I actually, Danita Wickwire, who is class of '94 joined my team recently. Which is incredible, because I told her, she reminds me a little bit of why I'm in this profession. Because if you go into this world of fundraising, it's hard to keep up with everything. But then, because she's here and because of our common history at Holy Cross, it's nice to have her because we were able to align around that a lot. And I think she participated in one of these podcasts as well. And she's a really, really influential and important leader in this space as well.
Siobhan:
Oh, that's awesome. She is an outstanding volunteer and name in our office. So our office is a big fan of Danita, she's great. Also, what I really like too that you said is, I don't know, I find that the job doesn't really feel like work and it's comforting to hear that doesn't change.
Sean:
It doesn't really. No, it doesn't change. I mean, listen, it's not saying it's easy all the time, but it's certainly fun.
Siobhan:
And then I guess you kind of touched upon this, but for someone starting out in this work, what is some advice you would give? And then I guess also, looking back on your journey that got you here, is there anything that you would've done differently?
Sean:
I don't think I have any regrets about choices I've made, also philosophically don't believe in that because I don't think it's helpful. But I think in terms of advice, I do think, and I know this sounds slightly cynical, so I soften this a little bit, but I really do feel it's important to go to a place where your boss and your colleagues believe and align with how you think about this work. I think often, sometimes I see folks make a mistake going to an organization for the mission only, and then what ends up happening sometimes, not all the time, is that the expectations aren't there. And then it can really be a hard place to be.
One of the hardest things about this business is... It's a very optimistic, enthusiastic person, but I also know how hard this is and things can go wrong, and you might not have control over certain things. And so educating non-fundraisers, or orienting them about how this work actually unfolds happens with experience. So I'm able to do that with a little bit more ease than I did when I was younger. But be very intentional about your career. If you have a lot of the elements in place, that's great. If you're able to grow, that's great. Don't go for the money, so to speak, or for the mission, make sure everything else is in place. That's my advice.
Siobhan:
That's very deep. I think that's applicable to anything too.
Sean:
It is. But I remember, I give a lot of career advice and sometimes I see people, it looks really good, but you got to ask all the right questions, make sure you're asking the questions so you have it all figured out.
Siobhan:
Yeah. Then I guess, is there any type of organization that you haven't worked with yet that you'd want to? You said you've worked with most of them, but is there anything that maybe in your journey that you've seen...
Sean:
I was in Columbia last week, the country, because we do a lot of work hemispherically, so I was in Bogota and Cali. I really enjoy, where I think this is headed, and maybe it would be fun, is like this orientation about raising money in other parts of the world. I've done it before, I've done it in England, and it's different in every country and it's evolving and this cultural barriers of this and all that stuff. But I like the way the globalization in terms of how we're thinking about the NGO, bottom up.
And also the importance of diversifying our space. Our profession has to be more intentional about how to do that and create space and opportunities for people of color and other backgrounds because there's a lot of history and reasons why it is what it is. And we have to continue to try to figure out ways to open up doors and opportunities that are just not going to happen naturally. You have to be forceful about that. So any place that is in that space.
You know what, the weird thing about this space, and I talked to Ron Lawson about this, who's a Chief Operating Officer of a coalition, homeless coalition in New York. It's in a weird way, it's really hard to raise private philanthropy for some social justice issues like homelessness and hunger. Hunger, not as much as it used to be. But I'm always curious about why that is. And there are some organizations that kind of outperform. There's so much money that's given away and there's some sectors that are just not there yet. And that would be fun to understand more why that's happening and help with that too.
Siobhan:
Cool. I just wanted to see where you were headed next.
Sean:
I don't know.
Siobhan:
Nonprofit.
Sean:
Yeah, it's fun. I'm glad you're in this space and you should keep in touch, Siobhan, it'd be fun to see where your career's going to take you.
Siobhan:
I was going to say, I'll have you on speed dial.
Sean:
Good. Awesome.
Siobhan:
Awesome. And before I let you go, I just wanted to end on a fun little speed Holy Cross round.
Sean:
Sure.
Siobhan:
Very quick. Okay. What was your freshman dorm?
Sean:
Mulledy
Siobhan:
What was your hardest class?
Sean:
That economics class with Professor Chu. No, actually accounting class with Professor Chu. Yeah.
Siobhan:
Nice. Best professor you've ever had?
Sean:
Probably Professor Chu
Siobhan:
I see him sometimes, so I'll be sure to let him know.
Sean:
I think he just retired actually. I thought I just saw that he's retiring soon.
Siobhan:
He is, but he has his little research.
Sean:
Yeah, you can tell him that. Tell him, gave him a shout-out. I think I was, it might have been... That was his first year he got here, I think.
Siobhan:
Oh, that's so funny. Senior dorm?
Sean:
Carlin.
Siobhan:
Oh, nice.
Sean:
Yeah, Carlin
Siobhan:
Favorite spot on campus?
Sean:
I guess I liked the radio station. That was a great place to escape.
Siobhan:
Oh, cute. First meal you think of when you think of Kimball.
Sean:
Ah, that's good. Probably just like chicken fingers, I guess. They actually existed, I think that they did. Or that Turkey. There's like some kind of Turkey meal that was good there.
Siobhan:
Oh my goodness. The Thanksgiving Turkey dinner slaps. Best restaurant in Worcester. This is good because you're a local.
Sean:
Yeah, well the best restaurant right now that I was just like, wow, this is a pretty good restaurant. There's that sushi place on Park Avenue is really, really good actually. And then when I was there, I guess Arturo's was a great Italian place, but that's not, I think that's closed now. Best Breakfast place is probably Lou Roc's on West Boylston Street, which is a really, really good diner.
Siobhan:
Good to know. Everyone always talks about Miss Worcester's, I'll have to...
Sean:
Miss Worcester's is good, but Lou Roc's is a little further out, but it's excellent, excellent. Yeah.
Siobhan:
Oh, fabulous. All right. Your go-to study spot?
Sean:
The Library right side, as you're walking on the right side. Yeah, not the left side.
Siobhan:
Okay. And if you were going to campus right now, where are you going first?
Sean:
I am going to check out this new performing arts center which is the coolest looking building in Worcester, I think.
Siobhan:
Right? It kind of looks like an airport, but in a good way.
Sean:
It's a very cool, it's one of the coolest architecture buildings I've seen. And it's certainly one of the coolest things in Worcester. I think it's awesome. I want to go inside it.
Siobhan:
And then last question, your fondest Holy Cross memory.
Sean:
Fondest Holy Cross memory? Oh, I don't know. I really enjoy fall at Holy Cross. That's what I enjoyed the most. Yeah, and I like fall in Worcester. Yeah, for sure.
Siobhan:
That's a good answer.
Sean:
Yeah.
Siobhan:
Especially fall at Holy Cross is beautiful.
Sean:
Yeah, like a football game in the fall. That's probably it.
Siobhan:
Nice. Wow. Thank you so much for chatting with me.
Sean:
Thanks Siobhan.
Siobhan:
Taking the time out of your today.
Sean:
That was great, thanks. Thanks for the opportunity.
Maura Sweeney:
That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others.
A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers.holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review.
This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcast.
I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire."
Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.